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Human Rights Watch: Kuwait DNA tests violate right to privacy

Many measures could potentially be useful in protecting against terrorist attacks, but potential usefulness is not enough to justify a massive infringement on human rights,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director. “I suppose videotaping every user of a public toilet could be useful too, but that kind of intrusion is hardly necessary or proportionate, and neither is compulsory DNA testing.

Human Rights Watch published a press release yesterday on Kuwait’s decision to capture every Kuwaiti citizens and residents DNA. In summary, it’s an invasion to privacy and doesn’t really do much in terms of security. Check out their press release [Here]

73 replies on “Human Rights Watch: Kuwait DNA tests violate right to privacy”

It hasn’t been signed into law and it will most likely be rejected by the higher authorities. The legislation was rushed in parliament in the aftermath of the mosque bombing without any debate or reflection. It is clearly a violation of privacy and useless in detecting criminals BEFORE they commit their crime.

multiple sources say that the law has been approved. This quote is taken from the link:

“We have approved the DNA testing law and approved the additional funding,” National Assembly Member Jamal al-Omar said. “We are prepared to approve anything needed to boost security measures in the country.”

It has been approved by the National Assembly, but to take effect, it must also be approved by the Council of Ministers and signed into law by the Amir. It’s a long way from that.

The question is, before the NA discussed it and approved it, did the request comes from the Council of Ministers? Or the proposal came from the NA?

Because anyone can propose anything and people have been proposing so many thing and selling them on hte front page of the news paper but then they just disappear. This been the situation since the early sixties anyways. So what really matters is the agreement between council of ministers and the national assembly.

tbh, because we’ve been seeing this in bold in the news outlets its probably being “advertised” and “sponsors” are wanted for the “upcoming project”. Meaning… its far from final or having an agreement on it.

If there was “something” really important and the government wanted it to pass, they will all work on it without even mentioning it to the media.

Have you heard about the new laws and punishments related to internet posts? There is a whole law just became effective and I haven’t read ANYTHING about it in the news papers. Most of us learned about it from a whatsapp press conference video that was sent to us. THAT law is what matters to everyone because even this post may contain illegal dialogue… I DON”T KNOW because we don’t know about the law that became in effect… it all happened quietly!

I actually searched for it and read it after I made the comment

https://kuwaitalyawm.media.gov.kw/content/%D9%82%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%88%D9%86-%D8%B1%D9%82%D9%85-63-%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%86%D8%A9-2015

As I understand the issue is not with having the law itself but how there is lack of clear definition of some of the things in it. I think Mark might find himself in deep shit for so many conversations that took place on his forums and for so many blog posts that he made. Heck even mentioning Tinder and Grinder sounds like something that can cause trouble now.

It has to be approved by the council of ministers and then the Amir has to sign it into law.

Similar to how in the US the bill has to pass both houses of congress and the president has to sign it before it becomes law.

People would rather get blown up that spend 10 seconds on a DNA test. Nas ma 3andom salfah

Mark, think about the potential of DNA testing — medically, forensically, criminally.

This will -not- prevent bombings, but hopefully will be somewhat of a safeguard to deter potential terrorists from carrying out their plans.

I’m not against DNA testing, I’m against the invasion of privacy and by the government taking DNA of people who haven’t done anything wrong, that’s invading their privacy. They can DNA test the fuck out of criminals if they want to but I’m not giving them my DNA.

I think most of the world hasn’t realized it yet… Besides DNA, it’s scary how much of our privacy is infringed on on a daily basis. Looking at you, Google and Apple…

It’s not some Big Brother-type thing…

I’m a pretty hardcore libertarian and I support this. It’s not even a full genome, just a little DNA – not much different than a fingerprint.

These things are also impossible to decode, meaning you can’t attach a face or a name to someone’s DNA.

Making it mandatory is where I disagree…but I’d love to see some more DNA/genetics stuff in Kuwait, considering the ESPECIALLY HIGH frequency of genetic diseases in the region (and we all know why…)

I don’t live in Kuwait anymore, nor am I Kuwaiti, but I’d love to work on this type of thing in the future, especially in Kuwait 🙂

I hadn’t initially considered the privacy issue, but you’ve swayed me a little.

Also… just noticed that the HRW states that the fine is $33,000 while the original article says that it is KWD 1000. Obviously not a drop in the bucket for most people, but still a difference of like KWD 10,000.

Wasn’t the bomber from Saudi Arabia anyway? If this system had been implemented before the bombing, nothing would have changed… idk

I’m just rambling at this point but although the idea of a database will 3 million people’s DNA in it is a little frightening, we will definitely see more things like this from other countries in the future…

Faisal – they are like looking to do RFLP DNA, which is useless medically: not amplified regions of DNA for disease prevention or cure.

Forensically, collecting DNA beforehand is circumstantial and the lazy route – analysis should be done on site and based on collected specimen.

Criminally – DNA is an identifier after the crime, and terrorists don’t mind being identified once they’ve committed the crime. It actually takes longer to identify human remains by DNA, because of the limitation of the techniques, compared to CCTV or any other evidence.

Finally – this will cost KD 100,000,000 (KD 25 per person). Some local reagent supplier is about to get filthy rich.

Had not realized the RFLP thing.
You’re right about the reagent supplier…holy shit.

Great points… Is it too late now? Didn’t the law already pass?

For this project to have any clinical benefit – the DNA region of interest must be amplified. Even the most expensive and sophisticated techniques, like SBT, do not unravel the human genome all at once.

It’s a shame, Kuwait Min. Of Health can’t offer the best genetic testing for the sick and those in need of bone marrow transplants, but there is a will to spend a fortune on an invasive, inefficacious, and a lazy forensics science project.

You sound like you know what you’re talking about. Are you a geneticist?
I don’t have enough knowledge on gene isolation to make a claim, but will they have all the same equipment to do it? I was sort of hoping they do… (I didn’t even stop to think that its not the same techniques, d’oh).

Who`s future? Maybe yours, not mine definitely. For me it`s a very big step back in respecting people`s privacy.
Let me put it this way :
Can I have your key to your house? Can I have all the details to your bank accounts? Can I get all your personal details? NO. Those are yours, private, only for you.
Medical research is one thing and yes is needed if we want to step forward, but this measure is there only to collect DNA and matching the samples collected from the crime scene so no R&D involved.

Right. Medical research it is then. You guys have convinced me. This is indeed an invasion of privacy, but Kuwait should not ignore the potential of DNA testing

Yea you can have those things. Just don’t mess anything up and don’t bother me. Actually if you wouldn’t mind doing a bit of laundry when you’re there? You’re a doll!

What if bringing this technology to Kuwait can open many other doors? For example we don’t have a fully functional genetics lab or fully versed genetic counsellingstaff because if the lack of facilities. DNA testing will bring a branch of medicine that wasn’t there before. Also I’m surprised that people think that this country is capable of exploiting information that complex? What’s the difference between your DNA and your medical record? You medical record is supposed to remain accessible forever?

The difference is that I get a medical file and a record added to it when I GO TO THE HOSPITAL TO SEE THE DOCTOR. I`m gonna repeat it for you, when I choose to go to the doctor or I have an emergency and it`s not like the doctor will knock my door with a warrant, either i`ll do a check-up or go to jail,don`t pass go don`t collect 200.
Like Mark is saying, collect the DNA of the criminals and do whatever testing and investigations you wanna do, maybe you`ll find the responsible genes, who knows, but leave the normal people alone. It`s enough you get fingerprinted like a criminal once you get set into the country, which doesn`t prevent any of the petty crimes by the way, but might help in finding the perpetrator.
Privacy is a very important thing, try to understand that.

ink what you’re trying to say is that they don’t have your consent? Is that it? And that’s fair enough no one should allowed to force you to do anything you don’t want to do. Its your data and you have every right to control what happens to it. There’s a whole act known as the data protection act 1998 (UK and Ireland) dedicated to it. 1998? I know right? Kind of makes me feel old too. Anyways…
What’s your opinion on the surveillance cameras on the road then? On the lovely ads we get via text message every two minutes? I don’t see many people getting upset about that? And that’s much worse in my opinion.
Anyways I’m not looking to argue. I just want better things for everyone and building things for the goodness of the public has not yet happened I was hoping it would be a two birds with one stone sort of thing.

It is a useless measure that would not serve in any way the proposed purpose. How will a DNA database prevent such an incident in which you have someone coming from outside the country, so no DNA recorded, to commit such a heinous crime?
I believe that it`s just a waist of money, time and more important an invasion on people`s privacy. A huge step back for Kuwait.

But a step forward towards the hopeful implementation of genomic testing in Kuwait, especially for cancer and DIABETES.

PLEASE PLEASE look at this – https://www.idf.org/sites/default/files/Kuwait_2014.jpg

Look at how much higher the diabetes rate is in Kuwait compared to the rest of the world, much less the Middle East and North Africa. We have one of the highest diabetes rates in the world. This is a huge problem that can be aided with the correct measures– prevention, early treatment, early diagnosis — all with genetic testing

Medical research is a good thing but it only needs a cross section of the population to get results to work with. Medical research also requires volunteers, not making it compulsory for the whole population to become guinea pigs.

e.g from UK – The government only collects DNA from people who are arrested and only have the right to keep a database of DNA from convicted criminals. But when we need to find solutions for diabetes we don’t start any research until we have collected DNA from all 64 million residents because we don’t worry about wasting time and tax payers money because we are all so rich.

This is treating the whole population as criminals because it was the victim of an attack. It is a shameful abuse of power. invasion of privacy, useless, and are guinea pigs haraam? …because this big brother activity definitely is. Oh and don’t blame genetics for all the diabetes, Bebsi and Bunger King might be contributing a bit too. Trust me I’m a doctor.

Completely right… hadn’t thought of it that way.

I believe that the US does that as well

this is reminiscent of the laws passed in a hurry after 9/11 (TSA, Patriot Act)… crazy

A cross sectional study is good but not the best. You get me a long 10 year randomized-controlled prospective trial…. Oh yea baby

You don’t need volunteers? As long as you don’t use identifying information you can use data to come up with conclusions. How do you think people know if anything works? This is everywhere!?

What!? If all you’re worried about is diabetes, then you don’t need DNA testing for that. These people just need to stop eating in all these burger joints they love so much.

What the fuck? Diabetes, both types, is highly genetic!

and what about all the genetic disorders that the Middle East has due to inbreeding?

Yes, but Type 2 can be reversed through diet and lifestyle changes. Using the “it’s genetic” card is one of the many reasons people stay unhealthy.

That is false. Diabetes is actually nearly impossible to reverse after a certain point. Hate to break it to you. Lifestyle and diet just doesn’t cut it.

You just made my point for me. Like you said, “after a certain point”. What about the whole time before that? If you wait for that long before you make any changes up until the point it has become irreversible, then all blame falls on the person.

Well see type 2 diabetes is a funny one. You can’t pinpoint the cause of it most of the time. Its many factors that alone won’t do much but together will cause diabetes. If you have the right cocktail of genes its pretty much just a matter of time. Taking care of your health prolongs your disease-free period but age plays a role unfortunately. I’m sure you’ve seen thin and active older people with diabetes? Living the sedentary lifestyle brings it on earlier and makes it more difficult to control if nothing changes. You shouldn’t blame someone for being diabetic, the disease kills you a little bit day by day anyways, I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.

Most of the time they can pinpoint it to a sedentary and unhealthy lifestyle. Now I say most, I am not including people with an actual physiological condition that contributed to them having Type 2. And they are the small minority. Yes, there are fit, active people who have diabetes. Its called Type 1. A whole different issue entirely.

No that’s actually all type 2 diabetes.
Type 1 diabetes is less hereditary than type 2 believe it or not.

Link that explains the difference between type 1 and 2 genetically:
https://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/genetics-of-diabetes.html

Link that gives a nice general overview of all the different types of diabetes. Note that middle easterners have a higher risk of getting type 2 diabetes than the white population (our lifestyle certainly doesn’t help, but we’re prone):
https://patient.info/doctor/diabetes-mellitus

You should really read your own links. You literally have just proved my own point for me twice over.

I did read them…
So what I wanted to point out in the first link is the twin studies. These are huge when you look at genetic diseases. Type 1 diabetes: when 1 twin has it there’s a 50% chance of an identical twin developing it too. For type two diabetes its up to 75%.
I’m not saying lifestyle doesn’t have a role, it definitely does. But you can’t say all fat and lazy people will get diabetes, nor can you say that they won’t. You can pick two people with the exact same lifestyle, one may develop diabetes and the other may not. That’s genetic. One person may have the right genes for diabetes but choose to live their lives perfectly healthy and end up becoming diabetic at 70 and the other won’t. That’s genetic.
Diabetes is not purely environmental, like both links mentioned, so you can’t say having a sedentary lifestyle will guarantee diabetes.
Did I miss something here? Are we not looking at the same parts? What did you read?

Another great point! Unfortunately the middle eastern race hasn’t really been studied in depth, genetically speaking. Personally its exciting knowing that there is so much untapped knowledge that’s right there waiting for us! And to create treatments that are specifically targeted to our genes is also another possibility we can look forward to if this goes how I want it to.
Fun fact: some western medicine may not work as well on us because we’re genetically different!
Another fun fact: you know how people say were all the same on the inside. We’re actually not. There are some diseases that are race-specific. That’s right: disease is racist.

On the forefront of medical research is anonymity. This is definitely not anonymous.

Secondly, if you are really that concerned about diabetes, you should know that genetics is a small factor. The largest contributor to diabetes is behavior.

A sedentary lifestyle and obesity are more prominent factors towards diabetes than genetics.

Perhaps you should be advocating research towards education and more health awareness rather than DNA profiling.

That is the truest thing I’ve read on here! Maybe we should start directing funds towards health research and awareness and eduction! Its in dire need.
I still want that genomic center though.

Mark and the other posters are right – this is a privacy issue.

Many neighbouring states have top of the line internal security systems and they didn’t resort to this. No country in the world has resorted to this yet. Think about that.

How will Kuwait get 4 million people to take the test? (They could barely do a proper census a few years ago).

How will the samples be stored – how do we know they won’t be tampered with (DNA be used to frame someone – let’s say a vocal government opponent – at a murder scene or otherwise).

Instead of jumping to forced DNA why don’t they implement biometrics: eye scanners, finger prints, CCTV, modern technologies to keep track of who is entering the state, who is leaving, who is in violation of iqamas and so forth?

Visa Trafficking and Corruption (border guards allowing entry and exit to individuals) is a graver issue because we all know someone who doesn’t have a DNA file can be smuggled In and Out.

A few months ago an electrical ‘malfunction’ hit the Ministry of Interior and for 10 days people were entering and leaving the country manually – how do we know it wasn’t a coordinated attack and fugitives escaped or some allowed to enter?

What about the time 20,000 M-16 rifles and thousands in ammunition rifles were stolen from an Interior Ministry warehouse? Who was responsible? Were did the weapons go? Who was charged?

Seriously guys tackling corruption and negligence is a a way graver priority than slapping DNA tests on everyone (usually DNA is removed from criminal suspects in Europe and with a court ruling)

We have to clean house first before jumping to draconian regulations that will impede on individual rights.

Does privacy even exist anymore? As a normal citizen they can do whatever they want fine by me. But for God’s sake don’t block Skype… !!

Since 2004 Skype has been the main mean of communication between me and my loved ones. I see them on camera almost every day. I’ve seen my daughter first steps. I attended so many birthdays through skypes. So many happy events and a couple of mournings too.

Some person (الله لا يوفقه) is apparently trying to profit telecommunications companies and he’s pretending that blocking skype is to keep the country safe! WTF.

You people are wasting your time over something tat really doesn’t matter if it happens. And really wont happen because they cant implement it. The whole project will probably take so many years to plan, so many years to spend so much money on machines they’ll never use and training for staff that will never stay in the same position at the Ministry.

We keep talking about so many meaningless news topics and forget about what really matter to us and that affect us directly 🙁

DNA recording although is an invasion of privacy, it shouldnt backfire one day. The current tensions and terror attacks in the world needs to be tackled in a more stronger way. Who are these terrorist? how are they funded? who is behind them? these are the questions to tackle. why are these terrorist taking the banner of islam to fight? does islam support killing of innocent people? has god directly told anyone of us to take another’s life without his consent. If our religion is misinterpreted by humans then that part needs to be corrected rather than getting into the lifes of innocent. the mind send of every beleiver should change. If a group shows 10 paragraphs from the quran to use violence and to Behead people , then the majority of the other side should show 500 paragraphs of love and peace from the holy book that detonates the hearts of the few filled with hatred , anger and thirst for blood. This is the real way of tackling today and not by using technology. The best software minds in the society are always the hackers so no use of using the technology.

A fingerprint database does not prevent crime, and a DNA database will not stop a terrorist attack, however, they both help identify perpetrators and associates much easier.

Opponents to this claim this is an invasion of privacy. But can they explain how this is an invasion of your privacy? what is the additional information that the government will get from having your DNA? A government already knows pretty much everything about you, your name, your parents name, how you look like, your race and ethnicity, your religion, where you were born, where you have ever lived, your education, where you work, where you used to work, your salary, and how much you are worth.

What guarantees you have that the sample collection wont be used for other purposes? and if you read well about it, it could be misused in a million way.

Moreover, keep in mind while governments and legislatures around the world have been debating this topic for YEARS and still doing so, yet in Kuwait it took “one” emergency parliamentary session to enforce such a controversial law! So i ask again, if decisions are taken arbitrary like that and u have no say in it, what guarantees do u have it wont be used for other purposes!

A rational answer by you is “no guarantees”, so add that to the privacy issue and the fact
it wont deter terrorism, so tell me how such a law is right!

Don’t see why thus is much of a big deal take all the DNA you need don’t see how my privacy is being breached and kinda doesn’t matter much if this helps identify criminal potentials or help crime fight why not.

If its not a big deal for you then you can voluntarily give your DNA to the government. I have no issues with that.

The issue I have is that the government can’t get something as simple as my birthday right (I have 2 different birthdays according to them neither of which is right) so I don’t really trust them with my DNA. With my luck they’ll end up mixing my DNA with some asshole like the Hawally Monster so no thank you I’ll keep my DNA to myself.

Maybe this scare will fix everything and everyone will start trying to do their jobs right? Maybe? Please?

If I am about to blow myself up would I care if my finger print or DNA or anystuff is on records?

It can only help in identifying me later and maybe you can use my DNA to clone some kids after I am gone.

For someone willing to die there I dont think there is any deterrent possible.

Actually, DNA tends to stick to stuff. So, It would help in identifying the people who helped you blow yourself up.

That`s true, DNA is sticky. But also true is the fact that DNA is very sensitive to temperature, so if someone blow himself up I doubt you`ll be able to recover to much DNA from the IED bits and pieces.And even then big chance that you end up with partial sequence. Genetic difference between individual humans today is about 0.1% up to 0.5%, on average. Humans share between 98% to 96% of the code with chimpanzees, 90% with cats etc. Now imagine what a partial sample from the crime scene might lead to, if just a small mistake/contamination happens during sample collection, at 0.5% difference between your DNA and mine or your friends.the closest match will be pulled from the data base. might be you, might be me or someone else who has nothing to do with the incident.

DNA is not sticky – its simply everywhere. Ask anyone who works with DNA about the lengths they go through to decontaminate. If it’s that hard to keep a dedicated facility clean, then how circumstantial is a swipe of DNA from crime scene?

Personally I don’t care about given any government my DNa considering that all governments keep tabs on their citizens. Some do it in a way that the citizens don’t notice. As long as I am not paying for it I don’t care. That said, I have had this same conversation with many older Kuwaitis who have laughed off the idea stating that the same thing happened in the late 90s but the Kuwaitis themselves faught for the law to be changed. What ny friends say is that if they allow DNa testing many Kuwaitis are afraid of losing citizenship because their grandparents lied about who they were in order to get citizenship. How true that is well… Allahu alim.

So I’ve done some research earlier today and internationally collecting DNA samples is considered invasion of privacy. There is a large number of studies from the US about the Right of Privacy, couple of cases in the European Human Rights Court and couple of court rulings in the UK.

There is agreement on collecting samples from convicted criminals. Some work around for collecting samples from those arrested (like temporary storage of their samples for some years) and voluntary “hand out” of samples but those usually are “forced” through some sort of contracts (want treatment for this disease? give your DNA to us!).

The the true question is… Why force the entire population to hand out their DNA samples if you’re only interested in tracking down criminals?

We all live here and we all know how things are… and this is just one example of how our reality is https://www.alaan.cc/qadetails.asp?id=13366

Disregard her question and read the background story about her husband.

🙁

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